Denominational Division Breakout Session

Transcript of the session facilitated by Jon Duncan, Denominational Vice President, 2006

Jon Duncan: The first issue we need to determine - and we talked about it earlier because I wasn't sure who would be here for this meeting, but to get everyone's involvement - we have to find a replacement for denominational west that will serve on the council. David Manner has just been wonderful serving, and we appreciate him so much, but he's going to rotate off. We'll get him on as soon as we can again. But it has been recommended that we consider Tim Studsdill out of Texas, and unless there are other nominations, we just need to make a determination.

Tommy Keown: And Tim would have been here, but his mother died over the weekend. That was unexpected, but he's usually here...

Jon Duncan: He's been active in this for some time. So, are there any other nominations, or can we just vote on Tim by acclamation? By your silence, does that mean Tim's it?

Voice: So moved.

Jon Duncan: Okay. Now if he says no to it, can you give me a plan B. Is there someone else...

Voice: Tell him we don't need to reconsider him from last year.

Jon Duncan: Okay., so he can't pull out.

Voice: We empower you to make a second selection...

Jon Duncan: O.K. All right, that'll work. So Tim is it, if that doesn't work out, I'll find somebody.

[extraneous comments omitted]

Jon Duncan: You need to eat with one hand and have a pencil in the other. We're going to talk a little bit about "Triple-A for the Local Church." Have you ever seen an ad for Triple-A, you know the auto club? The mission statement is, "We're here to serve you, no matter what." I mean, you get in trouble, we're here to fix whatever the problem is. And so you pay a fee and you get a service. At some point, I would encourage you to pull up the Triple-A Web site and see how closely it relates to what we do, and that's why I chose this as an example.

A couple of key things - we're dealing with leaders and to try to inspire obedience, a sense of vision. When we started out in ministry, we had this vision, we had this direction, this calling upon our life. But along the way, in our own lives, we've all had these bumps in the road. Somehow we were able to get through those bumps so we could continue on the journey, right? But how many of us - it would probably be everybody in the room - at one time or another, had a flat tire or had some kind of breakdown where we've all needed help, and that help was provided to us? It may have been in the form of encouragement, it may have been in the form of some kind of a crisis management situation, it may have been in the form of finding another church, but somewhere along the road there was somebody there to get us going again. It may have been just to bring us gas when we ran out.

As we work with leaders, that's what they are looking to us for: to help provide that. Now, we plan events, we plan training and we do all the things, we're involved in choral groups and all that. But we get to do that because of the other. And I think it's a real joy to be able to serve people in the foxholes as we do.

I want to talk just a little bit about some basic concepts of leadership before we go into conflict so we'll have some grounding, and we'll fill in the blanks quickly, so we can have discussion. So help me kind of buzz through, here.

First of all, the calling we have is a calling - is a holy calling, a divine calling - it's not a "hire," and I hear churches still using that terminology and it disturbs me that they think that they can just hire somebody rather than calling. Matter of fact, I had a pastor just call me, and he said, "I'm needing to 'hire' a minister of music," and I gently tried to move him to another vocabulary. But it's a calling of service, it truly is a ministry; it's not about our agendas.

I think something that's missing sometimes, we've got to remind people that it's a call of suffering. Paul says in Philippians chapter three, he said that his whole purpose of what he does is not about starting churches, it's not about even proclamation ministry that he's been called to. His whole purpose was to "know Christ and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His suffering." We're called to actually go through pain, so it's not an easy road. So we need to help, we need to understand, that when people are called into ministry, there is going to be suffering, and we have to provide some help from time to time. And we go through suffering, too, which is why these kinds of meetings are so important, to draw encouragement.

It's also a calling for continual growth. If things are static, then things are dying. There is no status quo in ministry, you all know that. It's an issue of character, and some words that come to mind that are important as a balanced life: faithfulness, accountability, obedience, and integrity. I don't struggle with several of these things, but I struggle with a balanced life; I battle that. I don't know if you do or not. I'll just work - I love to work, and sometimes I'll miss a lot of wonderful things in life because of that proclivity that I have. It's important to have a balanced life, to help model that, and to help provide that.

...It's real easy to think of leadership as just our small area of life. In ministry, we're talking about Kingdom ministry. It's not just about us, about our choir. It's not just about our church, but it's something that has larger dimensions to it. But it's also a servant ministry. When Paul talks about ministry - particularly in I Corinthians, also in Galatians - he uses a Greek word that is really a nautical term that means the "under-oarsman," the man who's under the bow, putting his hands to the oars and rowing. How many times do we think of ourselves in leadership, but we don't think of ourselves as servant-leaders. We want to be out there barking out the orders. Well, it's about servants.

And it's also about mentors. Who's coming along behind us that can carry on the task? How are we investing ourselves in the lives of others?

Now, leadership is always going to bring conflict. I think a couple of things that are important are that we understand that not all conflict is evil. Conflict is kind of interesting, but wherever you are right now, wherever your current reality is, and wherever your vision is that takes you to a desired result, the distance between the two is tension. Just like taking a rubber band and stretching it: the farther the distance, the more room there's going to be for conflict to take place, but that doesn't mean it's all evil or bad.

Now, this book - I've lined some up, and I have a lot more than this, but these were kind of important readings for me - share with you from Clergy Killers: Guidance for Pastors and Congregations Under Attack. They recommend "mace, cattle prod, grenade, night-vision binoculars, karate handbook, gifts for appeasement (like a pound of your flesh, a pint of your blood, and a resignation in disappearing ink), high barnyard boots because it gets pretty deep, decoding ring to see the truth, a mine detector, a real scary Halloween mask, a beeper for support groups and prayer beads."

Now folks, here's something interesting: police captured some gang members in L.A., and they came up and shared with the police what's essential for their survival. Now these are gangs! The first rule is believe someone wants to kill you. Stay cool and think. Know the street rules, keep yourself strong, prepare safe places for hiding and support, develop strong allies, know danger signals, know your enemy, know your limits, and have a plan (plan A, plan B, plan C, etc.).

Now, taking gang principles, the author says, first, believe it's possible: somebody actually wants to destroy you. Understand that your denomination typically has little power or inclination to save you from clergy killers. Learn the danger signals and patterns of behavior. Be aware that pro-action is far better than reaction. Learn that building relationships in a congregation is key to preventing clergy-killer attacks, and provides positive synergy. Accept the fact of evil and mental disorder in the church. Expect the attacks of clergy killers to have serious negative effects on your congregation and loved ones, therefore your survival skills are critical for their protection.

I thought that brought out some interesting things. This was written by Roy Rediger, called Clergy Killers: Guidance for Pastors and Congregations Under Attack [Westminster John Knox Press; April 1997. ISBN # 066425734].

Let's talk just a little bit about the issue of problematic leadership. According to Hugh Halverstadt in Managing Church Conflict [Westminster John Knox Press; 1992. ISBN# 0664251854] - which I think is a must book for every denomination leader - now the thing is, it's appropriate in individual settings as well as corporate settings. Sometimes we can't deal with conflict that is church wide, our positions don't allow that, but a lot of times we are dealing with ministers of music that are embroiled in conflict, and are helping them walk through it. He talks about different leadership styles, categories of problematic leaders: dramatic, detached, suspicious, depressive, compulsive -- and if you look on the next page, I kind of gave a breakdown of the definitions of these different kind of leadership, and we won't take time to do that, but if you read it you'll probably say, I think I served with that guy, or at least I know of someone who's serving with that guy - and now, there are also many good leadership traits as well, but I'm only kind of identifying the ones that are problematic, and if you know a minister of music that is serving with somebody like this, then know that he is in conflict, and he is in trouble. And so somehow, we've got to be gently pro-active, if nothing else, we've got to train people how to deal with the conflict before it gets too late and it becomes a situation where we're just trying to bail them out.

And usually - I don't know about you guys - but by the time I get a phone call, we're trying to work out a package, and that's shameful.

Dealing with conflict: first, early recognition is key. And I want us to come back to this, because this is where I want your input. We're going to fill in the blanks, but I want you to be helping all of us. Be thinking of what are some things that jump up at you and say, "hah," there's something in your gut when you get a phone call, and you hear something, the minister of music is saying he's in trouble, but there's something that says he's in trouble. You've been there. What is it that triggers within you that sensation. We'll talk about that. There's different levels of conflict and conflict resolution, but those are three things.

Let's first talk about early recognition, and I've written these things out. Environmental factors: if the church is in a changing area, there's going to be conflict in the church. If there's a decline in income, if their population base is changing, if there's a factory that's shutting down, these kind of things, just know that this is an environment that's going to breed - could breed - some conflict. There are congregational factors: demographic shifts, separating groups. How many of ya'll have seen that happen? We're trying to appease groups now: "We know ya'll don't like this kind of music, so we're going to provide this for you," and all of a sudden, you have three or four or two churches under one roof, and they don't get along. And who's caught in the middle?

Voice: The staff.

Jon Duncan: The staff, and primarily the minister of music.  The pastor just has to take his tie off, and he preaches the same sermon for the most part. Now, that 's an oversimplification, but that's kind of where it is. What's the minister of music have to do? And one of the struggles I deal with in the local church, is when that minister of music is doing everything he knows to do, everything he's been told to do, and the pastor is communicating in terms of, "that's just not it. I can't really tell you what's wrong with it, but this isn't it."

Voice: "But I'll know it when I hear it."

Jon Duncan: But I'll know it when I hear it. And so you keep throwing hooks out.

Complaints are early warning signs. An early awareness provides opportunity for identification: decline in attendance, change in power structures, hard-liners begin to emerge, and change in leadership behavior that you're noticing, including pastor. Those are some early signs that there is still hope that you can provide correction.

Levels - now this comes from Speed Leas' Institute of Church Conflict. Do ya'll know about Speed Leas? Some of you have probably been to their institute, I'm not sure, but it talks about five levels of conflict that I think are critical for us to know about.

The first one is level one, which is Problems to Solve. This is "fix the problem." There's a win-win opportunity here, and the key is trying to get, at this level, when you are dealing with a minister who's in conflict, that we've got to be attentive when we get that phone call. A lot of times they're calling not about a concert, they're calling to find out is this a safe place that I can talk to you about a situation.

Level two is Disagreement. It's more difficult for win-win, but it's still a possibility. Basically, people refrain from hostility, but the environment is tense.

The third level is Contest. Objectives are not self-preservation, but winning. And usually, this is about the earliest level that we get involved. And it is still possible to have a workable solution at this point, but it's tough because language is becoming distorted, using things like "he never does this," or "he always does this," and it's "everyone," and the lines are drawn in the sand pretty deeply. It moves very quickly into level four.

The thing is that there's a little bit of space - you'll notice that the space between level one and level two is pretty wide. It begins to narrow between level two and level three, the amount of time that you have to deal with this. But when it gets to level three it can turn to level four or level five overnight. That's why we've got to get in early.

Level four is Fight-Flight. No longer wanting a win situation, but the whole key is to hurt the person, remove the person. The talk shifts from specifics to principles and rights, and "you have violated my rights,"  and "I'm the pastor and have authority," or "I'm the minister of music, how dare you talk to me that way," those kind of things, and it gets very extreme. There is no middle ground, because whoever is in charge is wanting justice.

And then level five is Intractable Situations: conflict that's run amuck. It's unmanageable, and they're just seeking punishment, sometimes seeking revenge, and attempts to remove the person from ministry. Those are the different levels according to Speed Leas.

We might have different opinions here, but when is it that we are usually called in? What level?

Voice: Four.

Jon Duncan: Level four? Yeah, that's usually it. I would say that sometimes we get lucky and get in on level three. How do we move forward in dealing with it at level one? What are some ideas, guys, ladies?

Voice: I think communication with your other staff in your building, some of those guys have had conversations, without betraying confidence, with other pastors or staff, that know of situations even before we find out, related specifically to the minister of music. So just having an open door in your building to be able to communicate with each other before these situations arise.

Jon Duncan: That's right, communication is a real key thing. But a lot of times when we talk about the different leadership issues, if you have a pastor or a music minister - from my standpoint, that's where I usually see it - but we have to also understand that the pastors are dealing with the same levels of conflict as these ministers of music are, and for every case we can find that there's a minister of music in struggle, there are probably two pastors going through the same thing. I don't mean to be picking on pastors, but at the same time, that communication issue hinges on functional leadership. If you have a dysfunctional leader, problematically, it's going to be very difficult for communication to happen, because it's usually detached or it's very suspicious or it's compulsive, those kind of issues do not allow for good, clear dialogue to take place.

From your standpoint - let's talk about some pro-active things - when somebody calls, what are some key words that you hear that trigger an alarm?

Voice: Sometimes it's just a tone of voice, maybe evident fatigue, tiredness, "I just feel like I'm doing the same thing," which tells me there's some issue there.

Jon Duncan: Conflict accelerates greatly the issue of burnout, and not being able to deal with it pro-actively, it just becomes a death spiral that a lot of our guys face. There's a lot of fears from ministers of music that they're not going to be able to finish the race because at age fifty-two, fifty-three, or fifty-five, they are no longer cool to do what they are supposed to be doing. They are really struggling with that, because there's a lot of internal tension going on in their lives. Of course, this can go right through the scale. You can take these principles all the way through staff and accompanists and graded choir leadership and so forth, they are all dealing with it.

Voice: "I feel like the Lord is finished with me here, and I'm looking for..."

Jon Duncan: That's the key. "I've done about all I can do," and that triggers the alarm. And the easy thing for us to do is to say, "well, let's see what we can do to help you." Maybe the best thing we can do for the person is to actually give up some time, go to that person, and say, "let's talk this thing through, let's see where you are." If they don't deal with conflict in a pro-active manner, it's only going to resurface in another environment.

Voice: John, in the opposite end of the ministry, there's someone that maybe has been there, maybe not, is that new person that calls, and before conflict has started, and what you are hearing from them is "I have all the right answers, and they are all wrong." You can see trouble coming right then...

Jon Duncan: And sometimes that's hard to conquer, when the minister of music has all the answers, it's sometimes difficult to get them off that road.

Tom: Jon, I think, too, even before the phone call, if you can hold up those ministers of music who have had long tenures, have them talk a little bit in open forums, how they have managed to stay someplace for so many years, and the strategies they have, and it begins to put a different picture on things. It might bring out some of the things that we are talking about.

Jon Duncan: That's good, Tom.

Tom: But I think that you can talk about the positive strategies that people have, and that really makes a difference.

Voice: I was in a church Sunday morning helping a guy, celebrating his twenty-fifth anniversary, and his former pastor came back and spoke, and said that when they first met together, before the pastor ever came - this minister of music had been there before, about three years already - and he told the pastor, "if you want to come, and you've got other ideas about the music ministry or someone else to come serve with you, just let me know and I'll step out of the way." And the pastor said, "Well, listen, God called you here and God called me here, and we ought to be able to work here together," and they did for eighteen years until the pastor retired.

[extraneous comments]

Paul: Jon, at a roundtable thing we had last year, I asked the guys who came and spoke, all of whom had had numerous years at their church, I asked them, one of the things I wanted them to share was about times they chose to be quiet in their environment - hey knew something was different from what they were seeing, but they chose to be quiet. I thought of that when Tom was talking about holding up models...

Voice: Jon, also, the other thing that I've observed is that a lot of our guys are looking at what I call the externals, and they look at the exterior issues that are going on within the church, whether it be relationships or political things, and my encouragement always is, look, God's called you to a task. Your task may not be around those peripherals and externals that are going on, you've got some internal things that God's called you here, and focus on those things and not the externals. Once these guys get in - and we all get that way - when we've got conflict on the peripherals that we're trying to manage and deal with, we've potentially stepped out of where God's called us.

Jon Duncan: And that might be the greatest tool that the enemy has to distract us, and Paul, probably the success of those guys that were being quiet, were being quiet over the peripheral things that didn't matter a great deal. You can kind of let those go, choose your battles. Better be a hill worth dying on.

Voice: Jon, are you having more calls from pastors about their minister of music?

Jon Duncan: I would say it's about half and half.

Voice: I've had a sharp increase in that in the last three years, and this is a switch.

Jon Duncan: And I didn't have anything to compare it to, because in Oklahoma Bill got those calls. In Georgia I'm getting them, so I don't know if that's a growing trend or just something I'm experiencing. I'm trying to shift those calls to Keith and Kent right now, but their phones are always busy.

Voice: Jon, let me say something about something that Ray does that is really excellent - you were talking about being pro-active - Ray is really good about establishing relationships with guys by constant contact, and by doing that, he's establishing credibility, not only with that minister of music, but with the pastors. That's why he's getting a lot of these calls, because they know he cares, they know he can help...

Jon Duncan: That's good, being pro-active in relationship building. The one thing we just can't fail in is that area, so that's good.

A couple things, and then we'll have a little more dialogue here. Here's The Eight Essential Steps of Conflict Resolution, by Dudley Weeks [Tarcher; 1994. ISBN #0874777518], an excellent book...generally, first, if you find yourself in a situation where you have to go in and sit between a pastor and a minister of music or a minister of music and an accompanist in a conflict situation, which we've all had to do at some time. Dudley talks about, first a creative atmosphere, and he talks about in his book, make sure the people who are at "war" are not sitting across from one another, but are sitting next to each other. He talked about how important that was. He talked about clarifying perception, and as a mediator, as someone's dealing with this, you've got to keep things focused on where the problem is, and clarify. Keep everything, all the peripheral things out, so you can focus attention and find out where the heart of the problem is.

Which leads to Focus on Needs. What are the needs that each individual has, rather than "where is the heat at," let's find out, "what is it that you need," once again, clarifying, so that communication can happen so that minister of music knows exactly what the pastor is wanting. If the pastor isn't able to articulate it, maybe he sees is that he needs to get a better handle on what he expects.

Next, he talks about Building Shared Power, so that there's a shared sense of empowerment between the parties, not someone using a position of authority, lording over the others.

He talks about Looking to the Future and Learning from the Past. Keep people focused on a desired result, rather than this conflict that keeps people paralyzed. Have them dream, "what would be the very best thing that could happen that would honor the Lord and build this church?" Get that in their mind so they can picture that, so that it can become a vision that they can generate options toward, rather than just, "how can I get rid of this guy, that's going to be the answer to my problems." That is not the answer to the problems in most cases.

I'm working with a church right now, the pastor's been there six years and he's had five ministers of music. Five. And, as always, the guy just isn't able to make it happen. Well, we're trying to work through that. That probably isn't the need at all, but look to the future. Try to find out what you are looking for before you can move to it.

Also, Generate Options. It's important that there's room for flexibility on both sides of the conflict, that there are options that you can line out that can help you move in the direction you need.

Develop "Do-ables." Basically, this is a stepping stone approach, making short steps instead of broad leaps, and then celebrate those short steps of improvement. For instance, if the minister of music is really struggling, maybe in the area of transitioning - I deal with that a lot, as I'm sure you do - they are wanting to have a more contemporary service, or they are wanting to infuse more life or energy, or whatever the buzz words are. How do we help that minister of music develop a stepping stone approach by which he is finding improvement that can be qualified, that can have objective results where they can say, "yes he has arrived at this point, he is doing better now." So much of what we deal with in conflict is in the subjective realm. Find ways to make objective steps through which improvement can happen.

And then, Find a Sense of Mutual Agreement, so that if it's a pastor, or a minister of music, whatever the conflict is, that there can be some agreement that these are the steps we are going to take to get to the desired result. Is this a quick process? No, it's slow, but I think it's worthy of us to do everything we can to help guys and gals to get through this, because this can be a turning point in the life of their ministry. One of the responsibilities we have in our leadership roles is to help people fulfill their call and finish their race. One of the ways of helping them finish their race is helping them understand issues of conflict.

Now, we've just touched on a couple of, this is just a small step, but I hope that some interest at least has been peaked in this area. Some of you have done far more research in this area than I have. But I encourage you to take a look at several of these books:

Conflict Resolution [by Daniel Dana; McGraw-Hill; 2000. ISBN# 0071364315] is a great book.

Antagonists in the Church [by Kenneth C. Haugk; Augsburg Fortress Publishers; 1988. ISBN# 0806623101] - helping people identify the proclivities of people that are after you. Antagonists are not negative people, necessarily. You can have critics out there that are not antagonists. Antagonist is a very dark personality that says, "I want to hurt somebody." Let me tell you, the enemy wants to make sure that he has antagonists in every church, that will do nothing but try to create problems for people. Being able to identify those people is important, or their proclivities.

Leadership by the Book: Tools to Transform Your Workplace, Ken Blanchard and Bill Hybels [William Morrow; 1999. ISBN #0688172393], is really good.

The Leadership Lessons of Jesus: A Timeless Model for Today's Leaders, by Bob Briner and Ray Pritchard [Broadman and Holman Publishers; 1997. ISBN# 0805463569].

Getting to Yes: Negotiating an Agreement Without Giving In [Houghton Mifflin; 1992. ISBN# 0395631246], this is based on Jimmy Carter and the Peace Accord that took place in the Middle East, it's really a brilliant study, and it's a good book.

Helping People Change [by Frederick H. Kanter and Arnold P. Goldstein; Allyn & Bacon; 1991. ISBN# 0205143822]. Not all ministers of music are right. Sometimes when there's conflict, it's their fault, and we need to help find and discover ways so that maybe they can change so they can finish the race. It's hard to tell someone, "listen, it's not the pastor's problem." Sometimes the best thing we can do is be honest with someone, say, "this is a problem you've got to deal with or it's going to be repeated."

I like this book here, The Psychology of Influence. It's nothing twisted or manipulative, but it kind of shows how people are wired. I think it's a great book. It talked about one of the studies in California. The psychologist that wrote the book, he wrote it because he went to the airport and ran into a guy that was a Hare Krishna or a Moonie, or whatever, and gave him a flower, and the psychologist reached in his pocket and gave him a five dollar bill, and he walked off and he said, "I didn't want to give him the five, and I didn't want the flower, so why did I do that?" And he walked off, and he wrote a book about it. He talks about the power of influence. I think it's good for us because he talks about how affirmation is such a powerful influence in what we do. I recommend that book.

The Next Generation by the Gallop Association talks about some of the things that are taking place in the world today, that may be a help.

Sixty Trends in Sixty Minutes [by Sam Hill; Wiley; 2002. ISBN# 0471225800] another book I have found interesting.

Okay, so, we have a few minutes, ya'll take over.

Voice: Jon, the challenge for me is to get a pastor and a minister of music to make a commitment to the process of conflict resolution. I think we live in a day when the pastor's attitude is, "if I could just get rid of this minister of music, that will solve the problem." Many times they will be unethical and give good recommendations for that person, when maybe they are not competent, maybe there are moral issues, or a lot of reasons, but rather than deal with it, it's easier to pass them off to another church and let the conflict continue...

Jon Duncan: The key is getting it early enough. I'm dealing with a church right now in that same situation, that the key was, "will you help me find a place for this minister of music?" And I said, "Well, I want to see if we can find a place for him right there, can we talk about that?" And so that's where we have been working. But it is slow, and let's face it, a lot of pastors are on the fast lane, and they are hydroplaning, and so it's very difficult for them to take the time to do the best thing.

Voice: I've had them actually say, "we're about winning the world to Christ, I don't have time to baby-sit, blah, blah, blah..."

Jon Duncan: Yeah, I've brought this up to a couple of guys in the convention, I said, "How can we help our pastor's count their staff as part of the flock?" And somehow we've got to make that happen. The staff is part of the flock, too.

Voice: And they still bear a responsibility [inaudible]...to lead their staff....

Jon Duncan: Any other comments that ya'll might have?

Voice: How many of the guys do search committee training?

Jon Duncan: We do search committee training. That can be a big help too, especially when there's a gap, you know, to help deal with those kind of situations, because a lot of them are coming out of conflict. I don't know about you, but what's the last interim you went to that was a healthy one?

Voice: Jon, I think to, that there's a thin line, sometimes, between being advocates for ministers of music, and us being enablers for people who need to hear the hard truth. There are some times that the minister of music needs to know that the pastor is the head of the church in that place, God has called them to be that, and sometimes the pastor has to have the last word. And I think it's our responsibility to tell them that sometimes.

Jon Duncan: I do too. I bet if you talk to these guys who had the long tenures, they all understood that. That's a good word.

Voice: Some of them, the pastors, all of them, were very different.

[Closing comments]

Transcribed by Tim Logan, with minor edits for clarity. Thanks to the staff of Johnson Ferry Baptist Church for providing recording services.

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